The latest episode of the AZ Big Podcast with Michael & Amy has officially dropped. Episode 22 guest Susie Ingold from Burch & Cracchiolo talks about the effects of COVID-19 on the workplace and a landmark multi-plaintiff puppy mill case.
LISTEN TO THE PODCAST: https://open.spotify.com/episode/17Rl5U0Rp2vz6uOXWrkTwz?si=iuUTjmUARuWOGrCQH9TIdA
Listen to more of the AZ Big Podcast here.
Podcast Transcript:
Michael Gossie
Welcome to the AZ Big Podcast sponsored by Burch and Cracchiolo. I'm Michael Gossie, editor-in-chief at AZ Big Media, and I'm joined by our publisher and co-host Amy Lindsey. Today I'm super psyched to have in our studio, one of our former most influential women in Arizona, Susie Ingold, a shareholder at Burch & Cracchiolo. Susie, it's so great to see you again.
Susie Ingold
Good to see you too. Thank you for having me.
Amy Lindsey
Thank you, Susie. Alright, Susie, let's start off. Tell us a little bit about your background and your law practice.
Susie Ingold
You bet. Well, I am a native, an Arizona native. Phoenix native, actually, and I am. It's a good fit because I'm with Burch & Cracchiolo, an Arizona-based law firm, and I've been there for 20 going on 23 years. I'm a shareholder, I along with my partner David Villadolid head up the employment law and litigation section at the firm and what that means is we offer, I mean basically we serve as advisors to our clients when they deal with employment issues. We also litigate when necessary and if necessary, and lead our clients through that process, which can be very challenging, and we posture cases for early resolution, if possible, or if necessary, we'll try the cases.
Michael Gossie
Susie, I've been dying to talk to you because I know we just published a story recently about a puppy mill case that you worked on, and you were very involved in it. Can you talk a little bit about that case? I'm not sure how much you can talk about it, I know you settled it out of court. Can you talk a little bit about that case and the significance of it?
Susie Ingold
Absolutely, it was a very contentious and very long case actually. But what it involved, it involved a local website operator here in Scottsdale and that website operator offers a platform for sellers of puppies. And it's a very popular type of a platform.
High use, high volume of transactions would be connected through the website and the website served unfortunately as a host for puppy mills and they would basically sell their puppies through this platform.
Our clients were 8 plaintiffs who transacted – used the website — puppyfind.com to actually find their puppies and they, as you would imagine, we're very delighted to select a puppy for their families and it's a very happy and nurturing and positive experience. So, they thought and then when their puppies were shipped to them after they purchased their puppies through the platform, they realized upon receipt that the puppies first of all, weren't what they thought they were getting and worse, they were puppy mill puppies.
They were in every indication they were sick, they were injured, they were neglected and in some cases, they were all in every single one of our plaintiffs, they had to actually have emergency and immediate medical treatment, and veterinarian care for these puppies, and in at least one case, one of the puppies had to be euthanized because its sickness was so severe.
Michael Gossie
Oh my Gosh.
Susie Ingold
So, our role was to go to puppyfind.com and prevent puppyfind.com from actually becoming that type of a platform to allow puppy mills because it was, they were on notice that it was happening, and they didn't do anything to change it.
They were still allowing them to sell through their platform and now this case resulted in puppyfind.com agreeing to a whole host of changes with its website so puppy mills cannot continue to sell through the website, and they don't have that avenue and it's just that one consumer-based case where you can prevent – You know you can't prevent all horrible people from running puppy mills, but you can prevent them from having an Avenue to actually make money through that horrible process. So, we were very proud of that outcome, and our plaintiffs were made whole.
They're never going to be completely whole because of their experiences, but it was – the legal issues in the case were abundant also. It involved the Communications Decency Act because they're, you know, third parties are using platforms like that was a fascinating case with a great outcome.
Amy Lindsey
That made a huge difference.
Michael Gossie
Yeah, and that seems to be not a typical case for you. So, what attracted you to become involved in that case?
Susie Ingold
Well, it goes to my entire set of core values. I am – I serve on the board and have since 2013 of the Arizona Humane Society and when I was approached by the Humane Society of the United States, with this case I leaped, I mean, I immediately responded and said I will absolutely help lead through this case and it went on for almost five years.
Amy Lindsey
Oh, wow!
Susie Ingold
Took a long time to get this made right. So, like I said, I'm very proud of It and it was outside of my focus, which is, as we discussed, employment law, but it took litigation and that type of a skill set to get the case postured for settlement.
Otherwise, we may not have reached this outcome and may have even had to try the case which we were prepared to do, but we didn't have to, we got to resolve it to, like I said, this positive outcome.
Michael Gossie
How were you able to resolve it during the pandemic? Did that pose any challenges to you?
Susie Ingold
It did. It absolutely did the case had it was, like I said, very longstanding case but the resolution occurred through, you know, a conference basically, and in the pandemic, so much has to be done by video conference. So, that's one of the ways that we were able to. So, we continued to like, like I said, litigate the case through the pandemic and we were able to meet many successes.
Through some from summary judgment motions to appeals that were denied on those issues, and ultimately it just it, it worked out. So, how has the Pandemic kind of impacted your practice over the last couple of years?
Well, personally it's impacted. I mean, all lawyers have had to adjust well. You all know, and we all have had to adjust the way we do business and the way we in terms of our professional careers and what we do, but in the context of employment law, I mean every bit of my clients have been impacted.
Every one of my clients have been impacted and whether it's a direct impact from COVID, meaning the changes in the workplace, that had to happen immediately from remote working to setting up security based remote working and actually dealing with types of attrition and types of the impact of COVID pay structures, I mean and relief you name it that was immediate, but there are many other sort of broader impacts of COVID that might not relate directly to the pandemic, but the pandemic was a catalyst for types of policies that arose and were implemented.
The type of recruiting that can happen right now: there is and when knows you've seen the for hire or we're hiring signs everywhere, there's a workforce shortage and there's also a bit of difficulty across the board with retention because there's so much mobility with in every industry for employees and professionals to say, you know, I'm going to look to see if I have another opportunity and they can take it.
So, my clients have to make those types of adjustments in addition to implementing all the Covid related regulations and anticipating what's next like OSHA's emergency, the ETS that's coming. That's possibly coming. Do we have to have a vaccine mandate if we have 100 or more employees? I mean their questions are endless and we're here to help. Like I said, help our clients navigate through the federal and state type of regulations that come out.
Amy Lindsey
As an employer, it's constant pivoting and understanding what is my responsibilities as of today and bracing for what is going to be the impact for tomorrow. So, I'm sure they're keeping you very busy with questions.
Susie Ingold
And you are exact that hit it right on the head. It is a constant state of pivot, which as we all know because we're all employers too, it's not the most comfortable place to be. It's a constant pivot, but that's how that's when it's necessary. That's how you best serve your employees, and that's how you navigate this tough time. I mean cause it's not, you know, we think when are we going to come out at the end of the tunnel? Well, I'm not sure that that's the exact way to look at it, in my opinion. Anyway, there may not be the end of the tunnel. It may actually just be a constant state of pivot and maybe not as much at throwing us at one time, but you know, that's what we need to do.
Michael Gossie
Susie, we have a million questions for you but before we get to them, I have to say the attorneys at Burch & Cracchiolo have been proving for more than 50 years that a successful business or legal case of any kind starts when you hire the right lawyer. Let them prove it to you. Learn more at bcattorneys.com. That's bcattorneys.com. OK, so Susie, coming out of the pandemic – are still in the pandemic. Are there mistakes that you see employers making over and over again that could easily remedy some of the problems that they have to come and see you for?
Susie Ingold
Well, my clients in terms of the advisory role that we play, we try to prevent those repeat mistakes and one way to do that is to have the ability to seek outside help and not try to do it all yourself, like whether or not you have the most fantastic human resources department and the most fantastic human resources professionals within your organization and you even may have the greatest office management staff. They can't do it all.
Especially when there's so much coming at us at one time and there's so much like what like I mentioned on the federal side, you've got regulations that are changing and that you have to be navigated. There are local and state laws that intersect with those federal regulations and to try to have to do it all yourself is just. That's where repeat mistakes happen. So that's where you can have the autonomy and the ability to look outside your organization and seek assistance, advice, counsel, even on a daily basis on a weekly basis when things arise and you reach out to someone like legal counsel that can just provide that advice – that on the spot advice to avoid those repeat mistakes.
So, when an employee matter arises at 2:00 o'clock on an idle Tuesday instead of saying OK well, we'll deal with it internally or we'll figure out how to deal with it and two weeks go by because you've got other matters that are pressing. You can instead reach out to outside help, like professionals like what we do every day, and we can answer questions on the spot and provide that advice so that you don't wait two weeks, you get an answer within 60 minutes and you make the choice internally to deal with what it is you're you have you're facing, and then you move on to the things that you – your sweet spot, you know. Things you do best at whatever the organization is.
Michael Gossie
One of the big issues that have come up and has come up for the last hundreds of years, is diversity and inclusion and I think I've talked with you before and you say one problem that you see a lot of attorneys making or a lot of companies making is that they don't have that outside voice come in and to kind of advise them – what would you what would you say to those people who are looking to improve their diversity and inclusion efforts, but they're not really kind of hitting it?
Susie Ingold
Well, it's a great question because it's not just a switch that gets pressed, you know, I mean, you actually have to evaluate what your organization's make up is, what your goals are, and then have a plan for achieving those goals. Short-term and long-term, it's like many other approaches that we take in our professional spaces but when we, when you're talking about diversity, it needs to be in inclusion and changing internal policies that affect your existing employee base and then recruiting and type of, you know bringing on and making diversity a priority in terms of recruiting.
So, it's looking inward and it's looking forward at the same time but it's that old saying that that is been around hundreds of years. You know, if you fail to plan, then plan to fail. So, you have, like I said, a set of goals and a plan for reaching those goals, and you make it clear and transparent to your organization and your executives and your entire staff that this is, these are the goals and we're going to work together to achieve them. Diversity is a high, high priority for so many of my clients.
Amy Lindsey
So, you talked about, you know, looking forward. So, in that conversation, what employment lives do you think we're going to see surface and take the spotlight in 2022?
Susie Ingold
Oh, that's a great question too. Well, I think one of the main things that all of my clients are looking for some answers to and I myself am looking for answers to is OSHA's vaccine mandate and whether or not that will continue to be stalled. It's currently on hold and it has quite a bit of opposition, so we'll see what happens with that and if that's on the forefront because it will mean instant change and instant policies that have to be implemented and carried out by employers.
So, my clients are, you know, bracing for it, but they're ready for it. So, they're already preparing for it to be if it is enacted. In addition to that, there are other workplace safety regulations that are on the horizon. There are always pay structure policies with that, with our it's not a new administration, but obviously, there were changes that were anticipated with the new administration and they're still being, they're percolating. So, we're looking like the like pay increases in terms of minimum wage, whether or not there are going to be additional changes in, in workplace tolerances, you name it from and we obviously in Arizona have marijuana. You know, in terms of in workplace how that intersects with medical marijuana to start.
So, is that going to be on the federal side? Is there going to be any change in that regard? So, there are just lots, there are lots of things to keep in mind, including the constant pivot from COVID changes and different variants that arise and different things that our employers have to brace for.
Michael Gossie
We could probably have a whole episode just of its own on cannabis in the workplace, but Susie, we're so happy to have you here today, but we’re out of time.
Susie Ingold
Oh, exactly.
Michael Gossie
Thank you for listening to the AZ Big podcast with Michael and Amy. And once again, thank you to Susie Ingold from Burch & Cracchiolo, and thank you so much to our sponsors, Burch & Cracchiolo. Susie, thank you so much for being here.
Susie Ingold
Thank you.
Amy Lindsey
Thank you for joining us.