The latest episode of the AZ Big Podcast with Michael & Amy has officially dropped. Episode 255 features Todd Julian, a shareholder at Burch & Cracchiolo, who talks about tips to find the right personal injury attorney.
Listen to more of the AZ Big Podcast here.
Transcript:
Michael Gossie
Welcome to the AZ Big Podcast sponsored by Burch & Cracchiolo. I'm Michael Gossie, editor-in-chief at AZ Big Media, and I'm joined by my co-host, our vice president and publisher, Amy Lindsey. Amy, we all know somebody who has either been injured, involved in an accident, or been injured themselves and they need an attorney.Amy Lindsey
Huge conversation nowadays.Michael Gossie
This guy is going to help us answer all the questions you're going to ask yourself. Todd Julian, partner at Burch & Cracchiolo.Todd, great to have you on the podcast again.
Todd Julian
Thanks for having me, Michael.Michael Gossie
Can't wait to hear what you have to say today.Amy Lindsey
Thank you for joining us. Todd, start off, tell us just a little bit about the focus of your legal practice.Todd Julian
Well, my own practice right now is 100% a plaintiff's personal injury. I've been with the law firm of Burch & Cracchiolo going on 37 years now. And I started off on the other side of the fence doing insurance defense litigation.So that's defending companies and insurance companies and personal injury claims. And over time, I've now shifted the focus.
Amy Lindsey
That's a shift.Todd Julian
Yes, it is. But I like doing that and representing the victims of that. But it also gives me a unique perspective because I've seen it from both sides.Michael Gossie
What do you think is the greatest lesson that you carried from the insurance side around your personal injury practice? What's been the biggest value that you carried over?Todd Julian
Well, I see and I know how the insurance companies think, how they evaluate cases, and I've been on that side of it. So I've been against a lot of these other firms that you see pretty ubiquitously, you know, advertising firms and so on. And so I know the mistakes that they make.I know how the insurance companies decide those cases. And that really helps me in my own practice. Right.
Michael Gossie
So if somebody needs a personal injury attorney, they've been in an accident or they've been injured somehow, what's the first thing they should look for? What are some of the qualities they should seek in that attorney?Todd Julian
Well, and this is true for any type of attorney or practice, whatever your special legal need may be. I say that the best way to find an attorney is to ask for referrals from friends, family, trusted colleagues, and things like that. It's like, I would say, it's like trying to find a doctor.All right. So first of all, you need to know what kind of doctor, what kind of need do you have? And then you would normally ask for referrals from people, the best doctors that have the best reputation.
There's a commercial we see all the time where the lawyers are employing the prospective clients to do your research. And I agree. You should do your research.
But what does that mean?
Amy Lindsey
That's the big question because television commercials are inundated with that right now.Todd Julian
And so to do your research, I think most people wouldn't know where to begin in terms of doing their research. So for research for a lot of people these days is by Googling it. But what does that get you?It drives you to the websites of the law firms that have the largest marketing budget. So the people that are at the top of the Google list aren't necessarily the top lawyers in the community, in any field. But in particular, the personal injury, that is a very big market.
And of course, that's where you see all the lawyer advertising on the billboards, on the buses, and on TV. But that doesn't mean that they're actually the best lawyers.
Amy Lindsey
So it's easy if somebody, you need a new insurance company. You ask people for referrals because everybody needs insurance. Not everybody has needed a personal injury attorney.So what types of questions should they ask during a consultation to make sure that they have the right attorney to represent them?
Todd Julian
Well, at first, as I said, when you're looking for a lawyer in any field, you want to be able to ask around to find the right lawyer for the specific need.Amy Lindsey
First key is the specific need.Todd Julian
Yeah, there's a lot of different areas of practice. And I say that when you're looking for a lawyer, you want to find the right fit for the specific need. Now, there are some lawyers out there that are sole practitioners, or they consider themselves to be general practitioners, which means they're practicing in a lot of different areas.Now, my grandfather was a small town lawyer in Missouri, and that was fine. And my dad, when he started off as a lawyer in Phoenix in the 60s, they did do different types of things. And you could do personal injury, you could do insurance defense, you could do some family law, domestic relations, maybe draft a will and things like that.
But that's not a good thing. I mean, I call them dabblers. If they're dabbling in a little bit of this, a little bit of that, I don't think they ever really truly develop that experience and that expertise.
So when you're looking for or finding, let's say, in the field of personal injury, one of the things to look for is, first of all, that person's years of practice, their experience, unique qualifications like that. Another thing that's really important is, I think, if you want the most experienced and trusted lawyers that you can get in any particular field, but also in personal injury, is the state bar has a certification. There are only a handful, less than 200 lawyers in the state of Arizona that are board certified in personal injury and wrongful death litigation.
Amy Lindsey
Wow. Oh, that's a great place to start.Todd Julian
So if you're hiring a personal injury lawyer, and someone was coming to me, most of the time, actually, any time you're talking to a lawyer, you can ask them about their experience, their background. It's fair to ask about their fee structure. So if you're paying a lawyer by the hour, which is how most lawyers are paid, if you're doing a business transaction or whatever it is, you want to ask about their hourly rates or what a retainer may be if you need to pay money up front.Now, for personal injury, it's almost always done on a contingency fee basis, where the fee is a percentage of the total settlement or judgment or whatever it is. And that's standard throughout the industry. So most of the time, it's a one third of the total settlement.
The discount lawyers, they used to be at 25%. Now they're advertising that it's only 29%. I sometimes say, listen, you get what you pay for.
But for most of them, you can have a board certified specialist that really works up the case and gets a better result for the same contingent fee or contingent fee percentage as you would from some other advertising firm that may not even have a lawyer touching it. They're case managers, paralegals that are doing a volume business, typically, trying to get the case settled. And then when they don't settle the case, they kick it out to some other lawyer that doesn't have enough experience or doesn't have their own book of business.
So that's part of it, is that the fee structure for personal injury is typically going to be pretty much the same, that percentage. So then you want to get the best bang for your buck, which would be a board certified specialist.
Michael Gossie
Oh, that makes a lot of sense. So Todd, you said it's important to find somebody who's a good fit. So how would you advise a client to know when it's a good fit, when it feels right, when they should work with that attorney?Todd Julian
Well, again, if you're getting a referral or you can get a referral from different people, and I have had this, where a client has a catastrophic injury and they have referrals from a couple of different lawyers, they can interview those lawyers and literally sit down and talk with them. The consultation is almost always free for most any other lawyers, at least in this field. And it's a comfort level.It's similar, again, to going to a doctor. If you want to go to a doctor for a particular issue and if you're comfortable with them, you can do the research on the years of experience, whether they're board certified. Some lawyers will advertise about their results.
I'm sure that's accurate, but every case is different, certainly. So you can't judge one case by another. And I have had people come in to me and say, well, I heard that my case, I just take my medical bills and multiply it and that's what my case is worth.
Or I know someone that got a million dollars for a broken finger. No, it just doesn't work that way. And where certain clients or plaintiffs or claimants have unrealistic expectations.
And that's in part due to what they read or hear on the internet or on TV and things like that.
Amy Lindsey
So you touched on several times that the experience. So help explain to people, why does that experience matter?Michael Gossie
Well, you know what? I like the doctor analogy because I was like, if I needed a brain surgery, I wouldn't want to go to the lowest priced doctor out there. Exactly.I would want to go to the one with the most experience. So yeah, how do you judge that experience?
Todd Julian
And so I like the doctor analogy too, and my brother's a doctor, right? And we have very similar, we started about at the same time. And we, in our respective professions, our goal is to help people, right?But it's different because it seems that everybody loves doctors as the healers and their time and need. But for lawyers, it's a different perspective.
Amy Lindsey
You don't get to see people at the happiest times in life.Todd Julian
No, and that's exactly right, Amy, because when people need a lawyer, it's usually because there's some type of crisis in their life, regardless of what it is. You're involved in an accident, you're injured, or you lost a loved one in the area that we're talking about. You've been arrested and you need a criminal defense lawyer.You're going through a divorce. Someone has died and you have to do a probate. You have a business dispute where you're being sued or you need to sue something.
And almost all those different areas of law where you need a lawyer, it's at a time of crisis. But that is really where we come into play, is where we are trying to help. We're trying to fix problems.
Otherwise, sometimes referred to as counselors at law, which I like. I have seen from some of the advertising where people say, I need the most aggressive lawyer. I need a bulldog.
I'm going through a divorce and I want the most aggressive lawyer or whatever the case may be. That doesn't necessarily mean the best lawyer because they're not necessarily problem solvers. I think that's just more of a gimmick, right?
That doesn't mean that's the best to get things done. You want lawyers that also have the experience, that know the other lawyers, that can cooperate. In my field, where I started off on the defense and now I'm on the plaintiff side, if I went to different meetings and things like that, I know almost all the other lawyers in the room and I get along with them, even if I've been adverse to them.
And if I've gone to trial, good lawyers shake hands at the end of the trial regardless of what happens. I had one case against another lawyer and a family of lawyers, great people, and he became a superior court judge. But I had a trial against him and it was an interesting trial because my brother was the doctor.
Oh, no. I was reading through the medical records and I said, oh, I recognize that handwriting. He didn't actually testify because he was on the front end of it.
That would have been unusual. But after we got the verdict and I won, I got a defense verdict in that case, the other lawyer says, well, we're going to go up across the street and have lunch with my brother who's a lawyer and my cousin who's a lawyer and do you want to join us? And I said, sure.
And now I'm friends with all of them. I always have been.
Michael Gossie
That's great. Todd, I have some amazing questions to ask you. But before we get to them, I have to say, at Burch & Cracchiolo, there is nothing artificial about their intelligence.While Burch & Cracchiolo wholeheartedly embraces technology and all the ways it can increase productivity, nothing will replace the sound judgment, wise counsel, and humanity of an attorney who is vested in you, your business, and your family. Burch & Cracchiolo attorneys will be there for you no matter what the need. They are your partner for life.
Learn more at bcattorneys.com. That's bcattorneys.com. So, Todd, we went through this period where we had these nuclear verdicts that got all kinds of headlines.
Did it set up unrealistic expectations for some of your clients moving forward?
Todd Julian
Yes. I mean, it does. As I was saying before, some clients come in because they've heard about some of those verdicts.Or if you go back to the one that got so much publicity, the McDonald's hot coffee case.
Amy Lindsey
That seems to be the one that always comes up.Todd Julian
Yeah. And I will tell you, when I'm picking a jury and you ask in the personal injury case, does anyone have strong feelings about plaintiffs, lawyers, or personal injury cases, and all the hands go up because everybody has strong feelings. I blame that in large part on lawyer advertising and then also some of the hype of some of these big verdicts.The big verdicts are usually justified for whatever reason it might be. It's rare that you have a big verdict like that because of punitive damages, and that usually gets reduced. But you don't read about that.
You just see the headline. Yeah, you just see the headline. And you don't see that it got reduced or reversed on appeal and the rest of the details there.
But what you don't see or you don't hear about on the news are all the defense verdicts, all the defense cases. So if you're looking at medical malpractice, for example, and my brother has strong feelings on that as well. We don't agree on those things.
But I don't know what the percentage is, but almost all of those cases end up being defense verdicts and even the strongest of cases. So they are very, very difficult, but you don't read about them. That's true.
That's a rare case where someone really gets hit with a big verdict, and that's usually because it was pretty egregious and really bad damages, injuries.
Amy Lindsey
That isn't what the television commercials are.Todd Julian
Exactly.Amy Lindsey
It really isn't.Michael Gossie
That's actually really good information to know, and I think the public really needs to know that. Because you don't want to stub your toe and then sue the hotel recently.Amy Lindsey
I think that's the first thing people say now too. Oh, you tripped at a store. Okay, sue them.It's like, okay, but why? Because you tripped over your own shoelace. But that's kind of the mentality that we're kind of driving people right now.
Todd Julian
And when I did the defense, and I've said the defense I think is easier because you can go in front of the jury and say accidents happen, but just because an accident happened doesn't mean that it's the fault and it's the plaintiff's burden of proving fault, et cetera. And I did a lot of those premises liability slip and fall type cases, and those are very difficult. I've also been in the position, if I've had someone come in to me to consult on a case where they are of the mindset that because they fell or because they were injured that it has to be the store's fault.I've done some work where I've defended school districts in all different types of cases, and sometimes the parent says, well, I know I put my son on the bus in the morning, and he was fine, and he came home with a broken arm. Well, that still doesn't mean that it's the school's fault. There's only so much you can do when it comes to supervision and things like that.
So every case and legal issues are often very nuanced, and you can't compare one to the other. Right.
Amy Lindsey
So what is the best advice for someone hiring a lawyer right after an accident? And what are the first steps that somebody should take, even trying to decide whether to hire an attorney?Todd Julian
If the injuries are significant enough, and I always say the most important thing for anybody, if they've been involved in an accident or they've been injured, is to take care of themselves. That means go to the hospital if you need to, go to your primary care doctor, have the doctor make the recommendations for whatever is best for their care. And I tell folks, you don't want to have a big case.You want to get better. You don't want to have a permanent injury or anything like that. But if there is medical treatment, then it's always good to have a lawyer up front to be able to otherwise help or manage that.
I do not, and I do not recommend that other lawyers guide or manage the care. That's the doctor's role. But all too often I do see, and I have seen on the defense side too, is that someone goes to the lawyer first.
The lawyer refers to the chiropractor. The chiropractor refers to the MRI. The MRI imaging comes back.
They refer to pain management. And before you know it, you have $60,000 in medical bills. And what's worse is that some of these lawyers that are involved in the treatment side of it are sending the patient client to doctors who treat on a lien, meaning they get paid out of the settlement, which I just think is abhorrent.
If they have health insurance, they should go to the doctor where they have health insurance. So I like to be able to help out on the front end to take care of the legal needs, the investigation, to be aware of what's going on for the treatment, but letting them do that. There's also really complex issues involved with insurance lots of times.
Availability of insurance, the amount of insurance, and you don't always know that. You can't always tell that when you're on your own. Some people think, oh, I can deal with the insurance company on my own because it's a slam dunk liability case.
Well, I mean, the insurance companies we know are not on your side, and they're trying to get the case settled for as little as possible. There's also issues of whether your own insurance, if you have medical payments coverage that can cover some of the bills, that often a lawyer can help out with that on the front end to make sure that it's going to insure the patient rather than to the hospital. And then on the back end, it's really important because there still can be other types of liens where an insurance company or the health insurance company, whoever has made any payments or has any bills, often will be looking to get some type of reimbursement out of the settlement, and that comes out of the client's pocket.
So that's where it is also important for a lawyer to be involved early on.
Michael Gossie
That's great. Amazing, amazing stuff. Todd Julian from Burch & Cracchiolo.Thank you so much for being here. Thank you for listening to the AZ Big Podcast with Michael and Amy. For the latest and greatest business, real estate, and lifestyle news, check out the all-new azbigmedia.com.
Once again, thank you to our sponsors, Burch & Cracchiolo, and thank you to Todd Julian, partner at Burch & Cracchiolo. If you need an attorney, he's the guy to call. Thank you so much, Michael.
Amy Lindsey
Thank you, Todd. Appreciate your time.