The latest episode of the AZ Big Podcast with Michael & Amy has officially dropped. Episode 258 features Eddie Gao, an associate at Burch & Cracchiolo, who talks about finding a career in law.
Listen to more of the AZ Big Podcast here.
Transcript:
Michael Gossie
Welcome to the AZ Big Podcast sponsored by Burch & Cracchiolo. I'm Michael Gossie, editor-in-chief at AZ Big Media, and I'm joined by my co-host, our vice president and publisher, Amy Lindsey. Amy, I've been looking forward to this next interview for a while now.This guy has such a great backstory, such an amazing story, how he came to become an attorney. I can't wait to talk to him today. Eddie Gao, associate at Burch & Cracchiolo.
Eddie, great to have you here.
Eddie Gao
Hi, thanks for having me.Amy Lindsey
Eddie, thanks for joining us. So let's start off and kind of fill a Michael's curiosity here. What inspired you to leave business for law?Eddie Gao
That's a really great question. Yeah, that's a good question. I think really it was, there was a process of soul searching where I was enjoying what I was doing, but I realized that the part of the job that I enjoyed the most was the writing, and ever since I was a kid, I always loved the idea of being a writer.That was balanced out by my mom and my grandma telling me that I had to make a living somehow, and I realized that that's, you know, that's what lawyers do, right? And my favorite part of my previous job, which we can talk about later, was the part where I got to reduce the experiences that I had in person into writing and communicate that to a court to achieve a desired outcome, and so I figured I may as well take a shot at doing that for a living.
Amy Lindsey
That makes sense.Michael Gossie
Okay, but you left out a really interesting part. Okay. So that part that you're writing about, you were working on kind of controlling a heroin house in Los Angeles, is that right?Eddie Gao
Yes.Michael Gossie
So you left out that little detail.Eddie Gao
Okay, yeah.Michael Gossie
So you're writing about that, you decided that maybe law school was a path you wanted to take. Yeah. So how did you decide, and you ended up at ASU Law School?Eddie Gao
I did.Michael Gossie
So you probably had a lot of options. How did it come to be that you decided on coming from Southern California to go to law school at ASU?Eddie Gao
Yeah, so I cast a pretty wide net with my law school applications, and I applied to ASU in the first place because it, I mean, there's a practical geography of it being close to Southern California, so I could still be within driving range of my family, but what really congealed the decision for me was the personalization of the application process. A lot of law schools, when they let you know that you've been admitted, will send you a letter, and in some cases it's fairly apparent that somebody just PDF edited your name into it. ASU sent me a personalized video message from the congratulating me on my admission, you know, pulling out specific details about my application, and it felt like ASU cared about me as an individual, and that was really important to me.And beyond that, Phoenix is just such a great market for a young lawyer. It's the land of opportunity.
Amy Lindsey
That's such a personal touch from a large school.Eddie Gao
Yeah.Amy Lindsey
So that's amazing. I love to hear that.Michael Gossie
So, and then in law school you got a judicial clerkship, is that right? Yes. So can you explain to us exactly what that is?Eddie Gao
Yeah, so it's typically a one to two year position working for a judge.Michael Gossie
Is that while you're still in school?Eddie Gao
No, it's after you graduate.So a law degree is sort of a prerequisite. You don't necessarily have to be licensed as an attorney, but you do have to have a law degree. So it's working for a judge.
Usually it's at an appellate court, so here in Arizona, it's the Court of Appeals or the Supreme Court here. And it's, the job itself kind of depends on the preferences of the individual judge, but in my case, I clerked for Judge Jennifer Perkins. My role would be when our chambers, you know, the judge and staff got a case assignment, judge would kind of divvy out the case assignments to myself and my two co-clerks, and we would be responsible for the case from that point forward.
So we would review the record, figure out what the parties were asking the court to do, and provide a recommendation to the judge. And then we'd have a discussion about that. Sometimes she'd agree with it, sometimes she'd disagree, chart a path, and she would set us to work putting together the first draft of the judicial decision.
She would always have a, you know, a hand, a fairly detailed hand in crafting the finished product. And then from that point on, every decision at least the Arizona Court of Appeals goes to a three-judge panel. And it's kind of a fail-safe to make sure that it's, the ultimate resolution isn't being swayed by any one particular person's biases.
And what's unique to the Arizona Court of Appeals is that the clerks get to sit in on the judicial conference. In most courts, it's a closed doors, judges only, kind of secret process. A clerk gets to sit in on that at the Arizona Court of Appeals and actually get to present the case to the panel.
So that's, it's a really valuable opportunity.
Amy Lindsey
That's a great opportunity just coming out of school. So how did that clerking opportunity change the way you practice law?Eddie Gao
It's, that's a really great question. It changed it in a lot of ways. First of all, it taught me the importance of intellectual rigor.Something that the judges at the court take very seriously is, we call it candor to the court, really. It's fidelity to the record, being honest with the facts, and specificity with the law. What we do, our practice is a craft of words.
And words can be kind of imprecise sometimes. And it can be tempting to try to find those ambiguities and take advantage of them. And I think the lawyer's ethical duty is to resist that temptation.
So that's one of the really big things that the court taught me. The other thing was just as a practical matter, what I want to do as a living, right? The practice of law is so diverse, there's so many different areas you can get into.
And what I learned in my clerkship is that I'm kind of interested in all of it. And at this stage in my career, I really want to be a generalist. I want to have a broad knowledge of a bunch of different things and really get to scratch that intellectual curiosity, while also getting to vindicate people's personal interests.
Michael Gossie
So I know you're not taking any shots at your colleagues at Burch & Cracchiolo, but did you see anything during that clerkship that great trial lawyers that you see routinely overlooked during appeals?Eddie Gao
That's a good question. One thing that tripped up a lot of appeals was the failure to preserve objections. And I can understand why that happens, right?During a trial, everything's moving really fast-paced. People are making decisions on the fly. And if you don't remember to object to a particular evidentiary ruling or a line of testimony by a witness, that's the kind of thing that on appeal, the appellate court's hands are kind of tied, right?
It changes the lens through which the court reviews that moment in time, where with a proper objection, depending on the context, a certain standard of review would apply. Without the objection, it's sort of like, well, did this completely blow up your case? If not, there's not much we can do.
Michael Gossie
Eddie, we have so many questions for you, but before we get to them, I have to say at Burch & Cracchiolo, there is nothing artificial about their intelligence. While Burch & Cracchiolo wholeheartedly embraces technology in all the ways that can increase productivity, nothing will replace the sound judgment, wise counsel, and the humanity of an attorney who is vested in you, your business, and your family. Burch & Cracchiolo attorneys will be there for you no matter what your need.They are your law partner for life. Learn more at bcattorneys.com. That's bcattorneys.com.
Okay, Eddie, I'm a lifelong writer. I love what you said about how the craft of writing kind of drew you to law, but why are writing skills so important to litigators today, and how has AI changed that?
Eddie Gao
Okay, I like that.Amy Lindsey
You're going to go really deep into that one.Eddie Gao
To me, the art of representing a client is giving them a voice, and the way we do that is communicating their concerns, interests, desires through writing.Most of the time, that is the first and only means of communication to the court or to the arbitrator or whatever decision maker is involved in the case. In that regard, I think the ability to write clearly, and that's the most important thing, the ability to write clearly is, I think, one of the most important skills that a lawyer can have. As to the AI portion, I have some mixed opinions about it.
It, in some ways, can provide a crutch, a leg up for people who may not have the time or innate ability to write well and vindicate their client's interests in that way. At other times, the crutch is not particularly stable, and I talked a little bit earlier about, in my view, the lawyer's duty of candor and how important it is to be honest and transparent with the bases of what we are asking a court to do, and it can be very easy with AI, at least at the stage it is now, to fall short of that duty.
Amy Lindsey
I can see that. You kind of lose the perspective of the client. What draws you to commercial litigation?Michael Gossie
We know that you want to be a generalist, but you're kind of making a name for yourself in Commercial litigation, so what is it about that that appeals to you.Eddie Gao
I'm trying to find a more artful way to say it, but it's just fun. There's something, in my mind, beautifully clean about contract litigation, because it distills everything I love about the trade into a defined practice, because really, at the end of the day, what commercial litigation is, is it's fighting over what the words in a contract mean, and it's a fascinating game of chess, because, as I said earlier, words are imprecise, and sometimes we think we have said what we mean, but when a third party, like a judge or a jury, is coming in and looking at it, they might have a completely different interpretation.Amy Lindsey
Somebody tells me you'd be a really difficult person to win an argument with.Eddie Gao
Most people might say that. My girlfriend would not.Amy Lindsey
Fair enough.Michael Gossie
Eddie, you're still early in your law career. Can you look back and see some advice that you got at ASU Law that really has helped you become so successful so quickly in your career?Eddie Gao
I'll give credit to Trevi Grant. I don't know what her position is now. She's some kind of dean, but she was the career services advisor that I worked with most at ASU.Early on, I was just toward the tail end of my first semester. I was struggling through the process of applying for summer opportunities. There can be a lot of pressure in that process to go for what everyone thinks is the best.
What she helped me realize was that there is no one singular best in particularly the practice of law, but in any business. She helped me reorient my focus to figuring out what I want and then finding a place that fits that. I guess if I were to distill it into a particular soundbite that she gave me was, don't try to be somebody you're not to get the job.
Fantastic. That's great advice.
Amy Lindsey
Eddie, as a first-generation lawyer, what does the achievement mean to you? What does it mean to your family also?Eddie Gao
This is going to sound a little melodramatic, but consider the context of this. My parents were part of the first wave of students coming from China to the United States. They did so in pursuit of opportunity, liberty.And it's not lost on me that, again, at least in my opinion, I am now working in a profession that is focused on preserving those exact same things. So that to me, I think it's, in my mind, it's kind of the culmination of an American dream, if you will.
Amy Lindsey
That's fantastic.Eddie Gao
It's kind of beautiful.Amy Lindsey
Yes. That's amazing. I love to hear that.Michael Gossie
Okay. I've talked to a lot of your colleagues over the years. You kind of have a reputation for your office coffee-making skills.Amy Lindsey
Oh, gosh. I had no idea where he was going with this question. Okay.Michael Gossie
So where does that come from?Eddie Gao
It comes from a deep caffeine addiction, really. And I figure if I'm going to be feeding the addiction, I may as well enjoy the process.It's not as crazy as it sounds. It's a little pour-over setup. I have a kettle and a hand grinder.
Amy Lindsey
Your office is right down the street from ours. So I might just show up there somewhere and put your skills to test here.Eddie Gao
Oh, yeah. You're always welcome.Michael Gossie
Okay. But I live in a household filled with women who are also caffeine addicts. What's your go-to coffee place in Phoenix? Or you can name a couple if you like.Eddie Gao
Yeah. I do like ROC2, the roastery of Cape Creek. I think they do a lot of their roasting on site.I also applaud that the place that I order my coffee beans from is Battle Born Coffee Roasters down in Tucson. Great little husband and wife operation. And they have a really adorable Belgian Malinois.
Amy Lindsey
Oh, how cool. I love the plug for local, so that's fantastic.Michael Gossie
That's great. Eddie Gao, it's been such a pleasure meeting you. Such a great, great American dream story.We're just so delighted to have you here today. And thank you for listening to the AZ Big Podcast with Michael and Amy. For the latest and greatest business, real estate and lifestyle news, check out the all new azbigmedia.com.
Once again, thank you to our sponsors, Burch & Cracchiolo, and thank you to Eddie Gao, associate at Burch & Cracchiolo. Thank you, Eddie.
Eddie Gao
Yeah. I do like ROCThank you for your time.Amy Lindsey
Thank you, Eddie.