The latest episode of the AZ Big Podcast with Michael & Amy has officially dropped. Episode 45’s guest Susan Dana-Kobey stops by to talk about mediation in family law and the impact of COVID-19 on family law cases.
LISTEN TO THE PODCAST: https://open.spotify.com/episode/7BYwVIaYUrK7gbhzBe8bLm?si=zVGrMqy7Q5atjMk8QRYpCg
Listen to more of the AZ Big Podcast here.
Podcast Transcript:
Michael Gossie
Welcome to the AZ Big Podcast sponsored by Burch and Cracchiolo. I'm Michael Gossie editor-in-chief at AZ Big Media, and I'm joined by my co-host, our publisher, Amy Lindsey. Today we are very, very excited to have one of our former most influential women in Arizona, Susan Dana-Kobey, shareholder at Burch and Cracchiolo. Susan, great to see you again.
Susan Dana-Kobey
Thank you. Thanks for having me.
Amy Lindsey
Thank you for joining us. Susan, start off by telling us a little bit about your background and your law practice.
Susan Dana-Kobey
Sure. So, I've been at Burch and Cracchiolo for 17 years. I've practiced in California for three years prior to that, and I started out doing a lot of defense work in the construction arena and personal injury and shifted over to family law.
Amy Lindsey
That's a big shift.
Susan Dana-Kobey
It is a base shift and I still do both. I still do both areas and I still practice in California as well.
Amy Lindsey
Do you sleep at all?
Susan Dana-Kobey
Yeah, you ask some of my colleagues they will tell you that yeah on that midnight e-mail person but yeah so, it's a very different arena and it required me to shift my mind a little bit in how I handle those cases and clients. In family law, it's a very different dynamic than it is in civil litigation. So yeah, no, it's been... it's actually expanded my experience tremendously. So, it's... I've been very privileged to be able to do that at my firm.
Michael Gossie
How did you make that transition from construction law to family law?
Susan Dana-Kobey
You know well, I'll tell you, it started with adoptions. I had the opportunity to start doing some adoptions and it by far the most... I don't even... I can't even put into words how the opportunity to do that kind of work and the number of cases... clients have had over the years and to have the privilege to be a part of so many adoptions and bring families together. It just you know, I can't tell you how many times I sat in a courtroom and cried tears and happiness for the families, because it's just a really, really neat area of the law.
Amy Lindsey
Oh, that's great.
Susan Dana-Kobey
It's the one time you could walk in the courtroom, and everybody's got smiles. There's children running around, families gathering it's... it's the best.
Amy Lindsey
Oh, that has to be very rewarding.
Susan Dana-Kobey
It is. It is.
Michael Gossie
And it's got... and you're a game changer for people's lives and it's a lifelong impact you're going to have on them.
Susan Dana-Kobey
Absolutely, and I still get cards from families, you know, thanking me and it's just an awesome thing to be able to do and so that is what opened the door to family law. Because in doing that type of work I was... I had to get into other areas of family law. Actually, stepping into that and juvenile law a little bit and so that opened up an entire different world for me, and I enjoyed doing the adoption so much and helping families that I said, well, let's go into this area and being able to help families in a different manner.
Michael Gossie
What are some things that people need to know? Let's stay on adoptions, cause it fascinates me. What are some things that people need to know if they wanna adopt in... in Arizona?
Susan Dana-Kobey
So, I think there is this misconception that adoption is something that is so far, you know, to grasp, but it's very expensive. It takes years and I'm never going to be able to do it and that's not true. Every case is different, and I think what people don't know is that non contested adoptions here in Arizona, most of the counties have services for that and I strongly encourage people that are thinking to adopt that reach out to the county, go on their website, see what's available. Because they do have programs that help families that can go through a very somewhat simple adoption, that's non-contested. It could actually go rather quickly for...
Michael Gossie
How quickly?
Susan Dana-Kobey
You know, it really depends. You could have an adoption go as quickly anywhere from I want to say four to six months...
Michael Gossie
Oh my gosh.
Susan Dana-Kobey
But those are not contested. Everything, I mean, everything goes smoothly.
Amy Lindsey
Right.
Susan Dana-Kobey
The issue that really determines whether an adoption is going to be more complicated, take more time and be more expensive is really the situation of the biological parents. Where are they? Can we locate them? Are they involved? Are they going to agree? Those things are what dictate how complicated it will be, and sometimes it could take years. It can't... It could take years. I really strongly encourage people to look into it, reach out to the county, reach out to attorneys like myself and ask questions because you never know.
Amy Lindsey
Along the line of questions what are some of the basic requirements of somebody considering adoption?
Susan Dana-Kobey
Well, first... one thing that I think some people don't know is that in Arizona, you do a step parent does not need to be certified in most cases and the certification process is one of the requirements. The statutes a little bit convoluted, we probably don’t have time to get into it all now, but in a step parent situation, you don't need a certification. That eliminates right there probably at least three or four months that you don't have to go out and do all this, all this extra work to get this done. So, determining whether one needs to get certified is probably the number one thing to consider. The biological parents. Where are they and how involved is going to also going to start the conversation.
Amy Lindsey
Right.
Michael Gossie
So, I'm going to shift back. What's going on with family law now post COVID? Is it just crazy? Are you seeing an increase in the number of cases?
Susan Dana-Kobey
Yes, definitely a lot more cases, a lot more people coming forward, you know, seeking legal advice and what happened is... when COVID hit, and everything shut down. You know, it really hit families hard because you know, it's work, it's school, it's health, it's vaccines, you know, it's quarantining. I mean, so many things came into the table and for families that already are... children that are living in two separate homes and are dealing with two parents with maybe two different perspectives. So, it really brought a lot of issues to the table that, you know, nobody was ready to deal with and on top of it, you have the courts that are closed. Nobody knew when they were going to reopen. People are in the middle of a divorce or getting... about to get divorced. They don't know what to do, so everything came to a halt and now we're starting to see some changes in that.
Michael Gossie
Oh my... I didn't even think about the fact that people might have been going through divorce all of a sudden the courts are closed. What did? What did they do?
Susan Dana-Kobey
Well, they, they panicked, you know? Like, when is this ever going to end?
Amy Lindsey
Right.
Susan Dana-Kobey
And what really started to happen is that mediations came to the table. Because more so than before. Because and the mediators have talked to them and said, oh, we blew up. Everybody just wants to mediate. Especially... it's virtual now and we can do this so, that was the key element to try to move the case forward. Let's get in front of a mediator, let's try and get it settled and not wait to find out until there's a court room open for us, you know.
Amy Lindsey
Do you think that will hold? Do you think more people will start trying mediation rather than going the full length?
Susan Dana-Kobey
I think so, I see that trend still and mediation is always a component of the litigation process. It always is and I think in family law, it's extremely important because if you can get it done early enough in the right case, it can save people a lot of money and a lot of headache, a lot of headaches because down there, if you go all the way, you know it gets really expensive and with COVID, nobody knew when that end would be. So, for sure that trend will continue.
Michael Gossie
We have a million questions for you, but before I get to that, I have to say the attorneys at Burch and Cracchiolo have been proving for more than 50 years that a successful business or legal case or family law case of any kind starts when you hire the right lawyer. Let them prove it to you. Learn more bcattorneys.com, that's bcattorneys.com. Susan, what are some of the benefits in a family law case of going to mediation?
Susan Dana-Kobey
Well, like I said, the number one is cost... is that you're trying to not have to end up at a trial where you'll be spending a lot of money doing a lot of discovery investigation, depositions and then eventually the trials, definitely a cost effective mechanism. I also think that because of the dynamic in family law that the parties that can be so contentious and family law is not somewhere where you'd walk into a well, you never walk into a mediation thinking that you're going to win. That's not what mediation is about, but it's particularly helpful, I think in family law, because it's already very contentious with the emotions and the legalities involved, and sometimes it takes that third person someone looking from the outside in to help the parties come together, come get to a meeting of the minds and kind of be able to see why the other person’s holding on so tight to whatever position they're holding on to. So, and I think that it helps people get to their end goal a lot quicker than in a family called court setting because like I said, you don't walk into a mediation trying... knowing think that you're going to win, you walk in there and you gotta be prepared to compromise, to have flexible thinking, and come in with good faith and if you have all those three things. That could be very effective.
Michael Gossie
Does it take some of the emotional fire out of it that you sometimes get when it has to go to a courtroom?
Susan Dana-Kobey
Yes, I mean, mediation settings are typically you know you don't, you may never see the other person that you're dealing with. You know you'll be in a separate room, so, it... I think it helps again that process of just let's bring the tension down and let's try to get to how do we get to you the two of you coming together on an agreement.
Amy Lindsey
Is a lot of that being done virtually now too?
Susan Dana-Kobey
Well, that yes and I think that adds a different component to it because a lot of times people get a little tense or nervous thinking that they have to go see their opposing party and this happens in civil or family law and the ability to be able to do it virtually, really it takes away some of that tension and I think it helps people maybe be a little bit more natural, a little bit more candid and not be afraid, you know to just say it like it is. So, in that regard, I think it's been very beneficial.
Michael Gossie
So, what's going on in courtrooms right now? Are we back to in person... are we kind of?
Susan Dana-Kobey
Not entirely. We're almost there. We're starting to get back in the courtroom for trials and for some oral arguments and things like that but there's still a lot being done virtually, and I think and that's I think that's the trend. That's how were going into the future, because there are so many things that we can do in the courtroom virtually that are just as effective or efficient and are less costly for our clients. And this COVID has allowed all of us industry to see that it's doable, that it's very doable and it's efficient, so why not? Let's make that an option for people, and I think having an option is key because every case is different. So, there might be a case where I want to be in person, but in others virtual is perfect. So, it's really nice to have that option, especially with the courtroom where that's still going.
Amy Lindsey
Do you think long term that the courtrooms will continue to allow more of a hybrid kind of effect versus in person.
Susan Dana-Kobey
Absolutely, especially in the family court, they're already on track for that. We've heard from the judges that they've been really impressed with how it all has worked out so well, and there are the platforms are being developed and evolving to be better and so they're definitely sticking in that direction, especially in the family law arena where there are so many people that need legal access and can't get it financially that this is so important to have this ability to be able to do it virtually for sure.
Michael Gossie
What kind of backlog did COVID cause in the legal system?
Susan Dana-Kobey
Oh boy, a lot, especially with, you know, the criminal cases were at the top of the list to, you know, to go through family law but and, you know, the civil cases that just kind of got pushed to the back a little bit. So, yeah, there is a huge... I mean we're starting to see more and more cases go to trial and we're starting to get to the courtroom. But with social distancing still being in place, the dynamic in the courtroom is still very different, you know? So, but it's going in that direction. We're going to see more of it, especially in the civil arena but I think that overall having the ability to do things virtually when it's cost effective and time effective is going to be a trend and will be the future.
Michael Gossie
You know, I know you have a reputation as a great attorney, but I know that you also handle other cases outside of family law in terms of mediation. Can you talk a little bit about some of them?
Susan Dana-Kobey
Sure, the civil practice that I do, mediation. What I've said before applies the same across the board. I think that in civil cases, the virtual opportunity or option works really well because sometimes we have so many parties, there could be a case with twenty parties or a case with three to five different plaintiffs and defendants. So, a lot of times a... the virtual, it could be really hard for one mediator to be going from room to room to room and trying to talk to everybody and having the ability to do it virtually. I think this is why they're so busy. I mean, you can't get into mediators these days. They're booked out for months and being able to do virtually has really opened up their ability to, I think take more in and be more efficient with what they do.
Michael Gossie
You know, we're running out of time, but I can't let you leave without asking about one thing and that's about how technology is impacted family law. I know you're kind of an expert on how social media, how you know, shared like Apple share and family share programs has impacted family law. What do we need to know about that moving forward if, if you're if you're worried about being involved in a family law case down the road.
Susan Dana-Kobey
With technology, I think, and this has been a topic even before COVID it's been you know, everybody's communicating via text and Snapchat or whatever it is that they use.
Amy Lindsey
Right.
Susan Dana-Kobey
And we just... and it's an ever evolving area because as the technology evolves, we have to keep up with it, you know all of a sudden, so there's like a whole other way to communicate that we don't even know, especially the young ones.
Michael Gossie
Right, right.
Susan Dana-Kobey
They know it way better than we do.
Amy Lindsey
They are so much smarter than we are.
Susan Dana-Kobey
Yeah, and they know their way around it and so, it requires us to get our hands around that and try to be able to advise our clients and give them some direction on how to deal with that, not just with their own social media and technology, but also whether it's their children or another family member but it's a tough one because it gets away from us because it advances so quickly but there are cases and it's evolving daily. It's a topic of conversation in every case.
Michael Gossie
Well, we'd love to have you back to talk just about how technology is impacting family law because it's so fascinating, but this has been fantastic. Thank you so much for listening to the AZ Big Podcast with Michael and Amy and once again, thank you to Susan Dana-Kobey from Burch and Cracchiolo and thank you to our sponsors Burch and Cracchiolo.
Amy Lindsey
Thank you, Susan.